"Shitty flow" is real, and most people are drowning in it | Brad Stulberg: Full Interview

Brad Stulberg’s interview provides a compelling and nuanced perspective on excellence, moving beyond superficial productivity hacks to a deeper, value-driven framework. The strength of the argument lies in its integration of multiple disciplines: evolutionary biology (homeostatic upregulation), psychology (four phases of competence, situated cognition), and philosophy (Robert Pirsig’s Quality). Stulberg’s distinction between genuine excellence and its imposters—perfectionism, optimization, flow as an end in itself—is particularly valuable, as it addresses common misconceptions in self-improvement culture. The concept of ‘shitty flow’ is a memorable and useful label for activities that feel engaging but are ultimately unfulfilling, such as social media scrolling or passive consumption. The six barriers (dysevolution, optimization culture, shitty flow, zombie burnout, happiness industrial complex, excellence as a standard) are well-chosen and resonate with contemporary issues. However, the interview format limits the depth of evidence; while Stulberg references scientific concepts, he does not cite specific studies or provide data to support claims like ‘homeostatic upregulation drives all evolution.’ The discussion of dysevolution, borrowed from Daniel Lieberman, is plausible but presented without critical examination of counterarguments. The four phases of competence are a classic model, but Stulberg does not address its limitations or alternative frameworks. The advice on goal-setting and consistency is practical but not novel; similar ideas appear in works by James Clear (Atomic Habits) and Angela Duckworth (Grit). The interview’s strength is its synthesis and accessible presentation, but it lacks the rigor of a peer-reviewed article. The title’s focus on ‘shitty flow’ is attention-grabbing but slightly sensationalizes a minor part of the content. Overall, the interview is a thoughtful contribution to the discourse on excellence, suitable for a general audience interested in psychology and self-improvement, but it should be supplemented with primary sources for deeper understanding.

The title accurately reflects the core concept of 'shitty flow' as a barrier to excellence, which is a central theme in the interview.

The interview features Brad Stulberg, a recognized author and faculty member at the University of Michigan, who presents a well-structured argument grounded in evolutionary biology, psychology, and philosophy. He references concepts like homeostatic upregulation, situated cognition, and the four phases of competence, which are supported by scientific literature. However, the format is an interview with limited direct citations, and some claims (e.g., 'dysevolution') are presented without specific studies. Overall, the reasoning is coherent and evidence-informed.

• 00:00Introduction: What is excellence? Involved engagement in something worthwhile aligned with values.
• 05:00The hidden biology: homeostatic upregulation drives our need to improve.
• 08:55The four phases of competence: unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence.
• 17:22Barrier 3: 'Shitty flow' – easy, addictive activities that mimic flow but lack fulfillment.
• 21:22Barrier 4: Zombie burnout – exhaustion from over-optimization.
• 27:05Barrier 5: Happiness industrial complex – the misguided pursuit of happiness as a goal.
• 33:51How to set the right goals: align goals with values for genuine motivation.
• 39:20Why consistency beats intensity: sustainable effort over short bursts.
• 46:42The long game: patience, plateaus, and breakthroughs in the pursuit of excellence.

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• Full Interview: Robert Waldinger on Happiness ✓ verified — Related Big Think interview mentioned as 'up next'.
• Video Transcript: Excellence Stulberg ✓ verified — Official transcript of the interview.
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• Atomic Habits by James Clear — Similar emphasis on small consistent actions and identity-based habits.
• Grit by Angela Duckworth — Focus on perseverance and passion for long-term goals.
• Flow by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi — Original research on flow states, which Stulberg builds upon.

• The Happiness Hypothesis by Jonathan Haidt — Haidt argues that happiness can be pursued directly through certain practices, while Stulberg claims happiness is a byproduct.